Charges

[Apokerlypse]

Picking up on a couple of comments on other threads about the level of charges in some of the cardrooms, I thik that we as players have to accept that that Free poker is a thing of the past. We may get the odd tournament where there are no charges applied but as a whole I think that charges are here to stay, and in many cases I can see them increasing.

The primary comment has related to the Grosvenors charge of £5.50 for a £20.00 freezeout, which when applied as a percentage of the buy in does seem quite excessive, where as other card rooms are charging around 10% as a charge, the Grosvenors charge in this case is in excess of 25%.

However, I feel that we all have to bear in mind the Casino's attitude to Poker, in purely financial terms poker is a loss leader for many Casino's. Where even a charge at this level will not cover the cost of putting the game on.

What do we get for our charge?

Well first of all there is the floor space, the amount of floor space taken up by the card rooms is way in excess of any other casino activity per £1 generated. 2 of the slots in the casino will probably generate more income to the casino than the entire card room on a busy night.

Staff. On a weekend night I would imagine that the Grosvenor will have about 3 sometimes 4 members of staff in the card room, if tournament has 60 runners that will generate £330 in charges, I dont think that that would cover the cost of the staff wages and benefits for the night, and with less runners they would be running at a loss.

Drinks. Yes we get free non alcoholic drinks.

In other card rooms for a lesser charge you get all of this and in the case of Aspers, a dealer.

But bear in mind that Aspers did try to change this a little while ago, but had to have a rethink when many of the regulars moved onto other venues.

I know that the counter argument will always be that poker brings people into the casino who will contribute to the casino through the table games and the slots, but I think the true value of this is negligible, as many of the blackjack and roulette players are gamblers who play poker, who may be there on tables in any case ,rather than poker players who gamble. There will be people who can give me instances to the contrary but I will take some convincing that as a whole the contribution they make to a casino's income would not totally offset the cost of providing a card room.

I could go on for a good while yet, but I dont want to hog the whole forum.

But to summarise, I think that the charging structure we see at the Grosvenor may be the future for all card rooms, the cost of providing us with decent facilities to play is not reducing, and on a purely business level, card rooms will have to cover their costs at least to continue to to be provided.

We as players have been spoiled in the past, for many months Circus had no charges for their tournaments, but the floor space and staff still had to be paid for.

As we have the luxury of having three excellent venues to play, competition for players will help keep the charges down, but I also feel that if a card room fails to cover its own costs longterm, or the support for a card room recedes signifigantly, then the number crunchers would have no hesitation in closing it down, and sticking something which would be more productive in its place.

I for one still think that we get reasonable value as players for our charges, and am happy to pay.

PS... got on a bus for the first time in years a couple of days ago. My place to Newcastle £3.40 one way, now thats a scandal!!!!!!

[Jimmy Chipmunk]

Reading that post was like reminded me of doing Algebra back at school:confused:

floor space divided by the number of tables + players multiplied by the registration fee minus no dealers and buffet = a whole lot of Tosh:eek:

If you charge less and get 50 more people through the door they will gamble more on the tables than there collective SESSION fee

Or put simpler if The Grosvenor are going to rip people off why bloody go there

[Apokerlypse]

Sorry if it was a bit heavy, but the charges are a fact of life now, and if other casinos are any thing to go by they will get larger for the smaller level buy ins.

Gala Sunderland £5 rebuy £5 registration fee.

DTD in Nottingham 10% reg fee, but pay for all soft and hot drinks.

My point is that the days of getting something for nothing are numbered, and our choice as players will be to continue to play in the existing card rooms, and pay whatever charges, or focus more on internet poker, there may even be a boom in home games.

[the card guard kid]

couple of points re the charges. firstly the space taken up by the card room cannot be filled by slot machines as the casino already has the maximum machines allowed by currect gaming law. secondly the gaming tables they have are always half empty so no sense in putting more in the card room space. im my humble opinion the grosvenor group in general are " greedy" when it comes to charges, whilst i appreciate we will not get the something for nothing mentality, charging £3.50 for a £10 game and £5.50 for a £20 game and then making the games self dealt is way way over the top. simple equation £20 game, 60 runners = £330 charges plus £5 per hour per player for the dealer dealt cash games(normally 10 handed for 5 hours = £250), £3 per hour per player for the non dealer dealt cash games(weekend normally 10 handed for 5 hours = £150) and £1 per player per sit and go. on a friday this equates to £330 + £250 + £150 = £730 which considering there will be maximum of 3 staff in the card room seem pretty steep to me. i know they provide the space, tables cards and chips and staff but they also get the benefit of the poker players spending on the casino floor as well. i know personally i would not visit the casino if it were not for the poker and yet while i am there i spend on average £150 on the floor per visit. think if the grosvenor had a look at their charges structure and maybe they became more player friendly then the numbers entering the competions may well rise

[Apokerlypse]

Please dont mistake my post as support for any particular Casino, or their charging structure. My feeling is that the Grosvenor is the first to have this level of charge, but im sure that they will not be the last. I do think that the cost of poker will rise over the next couple of years, and we as players will have to accept it, or find another source for our games.

[Jimmy Chipmunk]

Exactly if people voted with there feet the Greedy Grosvenor would soon lower there charges and if they didnt then Stanley would get most of there players thus creating bigger pots and better tournys at Stanleys so it is a Win,Win situation just what this forum has been created for:D

[iamgaryr]

....

[teamdobb]

I would not want this topic to spiral out of control but it was a topic that caught my attention and create a big debate on another national forum. From that the need of this forum was founded.
A huge purpose of this forum is to inform players of what is going on and what is available to them because so many just have not got a clue.
It gives them the platform to also express their opinions whether it be negative or positive. Everyone is allowed an opinion in this country.
Another is to try and bring TOGETHER the 3 main venues in Newcastle to work together instead of cutting each others throats. I realise this is not as easy as it may seem due to possible restrictions in place at major national companies who are run by people above the Cardroom managers but if you dont try then things dont improve. At least in Newcastle we do have cardroom managers that will listen and hopefully make changes where possible and where necessary.
It will be interesting to see where we are in the next few months- hopefully moving in a forward direction!

[candygirl]

At the end of the day the people that you talk to in the casinos and the people who read the forums are just the little people.

Every decision at Grosvenor, i.e. leagues, has to go to head office. As stupid as this may seem it's just the way it is. there is nothing we can do about it. Even things like giving out free drinks/meals for promotions has to go to head office.
People in head office do not read poker forums, so why bother to complain about it on them. It won't make a difference.

All we can do is try to make sure you enjoy yourself when you are in the casino.

To pick up on what was said about if the players leave Grosvenor will drop the charges. THIS IS NOT TRUE. All that will happen is that Grosvenor head office will close the cardroom.
The charges are here to stay. The staff don't like them as much as the customers. Even the management team are constantly complaining to head office about them.
When they first came in I told numerous customer that I would give them the address of head office so they could complain but no one took me up o the offer. I will gladly still do this.

[the card guard kid]

[QUOTE=candygirl;164]

All we can do is try to make sure you enjoy yourself when you are in the casino.


well can we have topless dealers and card room managers please

[teamdobb]

At the end of the day the people that you talk to in the casinos and the people who read the forums are just the little people.

Every decision at Grosvenor, i.e. leagues, has to go to head office. As stupid as this may seem it's just the way it is. there is nothing we can do about it. Even things like giving out free drinks/meals for promotions has to go to head office.
People in head office do not read poker forums, so why bother to complain about it on them. It won't make a difference.

All we can do is try to make sure you enjoy yourself when you are in the casino.

To pick up on what was said about if the players leave Grosvenor will drop the charges. THIS IS NOT TRUE. All that will happen is that Grosvenor head office will close the cardroom.
The charges are here to stay. The staff don't like them as much as the customers. Even the management team are constantly complaining to head office about them.
When they first came in I told numerous customer that I would give them the address of head office so they could complain but no one took me up o the offer. I will gladly still do this.


Little people lolol I luv that comment big girl!
Listen I fully understand decisions that have been openly discussed on forums mostly fail to reach the decision makers and do they really care ?BUT if you dont try and dont attempt to improve situations and conditions then why or why bother doing anything. Lets just all bow to the hierachy and take any crap they want to dish out then! Send a PM to us Candygirl of a contact name at Head Office together with the address please and we shall send a nice diplomatic message over maybe.
I remember not so long ago certain situations arose in one casino that had to be changed due to players loudly venting their opinions to the complex. Look after your customers or you lose them.
Finally what ever you do DONT let Stevey deal topless! hes bad enough when hes dressed.

[morlspin]

Finally what ever you do DONT let Stevey deal topless! hes bad enough when hes dressed.

However please encourage Rachel :D

[the card guard kid]

However please encourage Rachel :D

and to get the ball rolling i think the cardroom manager should set an example and go topless as well.

[teamdobb]

I would if she would!

[Looseman]

what is truly shocking in this thread is an employee( I think) of a major service related business saying that their customers opinions are ignored. If this is a fact, in this competitive market place, then they are hitting the self destruct button. I see examples regularly where licensed casino's/bookies are simply going for the cash and ignoring the wishes of the customers. 16 years ago me and my wife used to enjoy finishing a saturday night in town at one of the casino's playing roulette, the chips were 25p each and we could( with our limit of £30) enjoy play on the tables. The £30 represented 120 chips and you could actually play and make this last. It was a social occasion we used to see other couples there also playing for fun and the atmosphere was excellent. Slowly but surely the social element has been squeezed out of this situation as £30 now gives you no feeling that you can play the game 1/2 spins and you miss and you are out. We certainly don't see any of the people who used to frequent the casino's, enjoy a meal, a bit crack and some gambling.
I pick this up in these threads there is a danger poker could move the same way, players on here will soon be organising home games, someone supplies the Chilli, someone the beers, someones wife will be topless dealing( perhaps) and allowing their home to be used for a regular weekly game(on rotation) and the losers will be the casino's, don't kid yourself their set up at every level is to extract cash and they can't do that if you don't walk in the door.

Their charges should be comparable with on line and perhaps lower, they have the cross selling opportunity of their other games to compensate them. They opened their doors and immediately entered a huge fixed cost business chasing entry fees is long term the wrong way for these people to go and they need to work on startegies that bring back a social feel to their casino's as used to be experienced in Gray's and the Assembly Rooms.

[teamdobb]

Wow what a great reply and so well put imo. Cant agree more in everything said and I also remember the days and atmosphere at Greys and the Assembly rooms where as you said "it was a night out"

P.s. Sandra makes nice chilli but dont like dealing too much!

[Phlmc]

if the card guard kid wants to see Stevie G and the fellas with no top thats his business but dont drag us to your level. And ur not the real cardguard kid till u forfiet a larger proportion of the money to get a card guard- thats commitment

[the card guard kid]

if the card guard kid wants to see Stevie G and the fellas with no top thats his business but dont drag us to your level. And ur not the real cardguard kid till u forfiet a larger proportion of the money to get a card guard- thats commitment

listen i would give up 75% of the money just for the card guard cos thats what its all about and remember when you heads up with me at any time my hand could be death(only the left one though)

[Phlmc]

The right hand not so much?

[the card guard kid]

[QUOTE=Phlmc;1249]The right hand not so much?

no the right pretty rubbish but left hand watch out

[Phlmc]

what about your left and right legs?

Id like to see "the proffessor" in the poker hall of fame for his winning of a tournament after the most intoxication in units ever.

Read ur bad beats- made me laugh, what u doing playing in them tourneys anyway- did u not feel out of place, come back and play a 20 bat freeze at the home of poker- where if u have a personality your banned!!!
No chance of me or u ever gettin banned willdog