River decision with 4th pair.

[BrickontheRiver]

is 4th pair still good here? thoughts on my line up to river and river decision?

Full Tilt Poker Game #15946258531: $3 + $0.30 KO Sit & Go (116949680), Table 1 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 10:06:50 ET - 2009/11/11
Seat 1: biko06 (10,650), is sitting out
Seat 2: john920 (7,690)
Seat 3: kazimir11 (2,230)
Seat 4: fearQ (2,950)
Seat 5: pbs4u (6,113)
Seat 6: DnPnA (2,750)
Seat 7: jora555 (1,795)
Seat 8: PlaYasChiCa (7,710)
Seat 9: brickonriver (5,835)
PlaYasChiCa posts the small blind of 50
brickonriver posts the big blind of 100
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to brickonriver [4c 4s]
biko06 folds
john920 folds
kazimir11 folds
fearQ raises to 300
pbs4u folds
DnPnA folds
jora555 folds
PlaYasChiCa folds
brickonriver calls 200
*** FLOP *** [9h 2h 9d]
brickonriver checks
fearQ bets 500
brickonriver calls 500
*** TURN *** [9h 2h 9d] [7c]
brickonriver checks
fearQ checks
*** RIVER *** [9h 2h 9d 7c] [Jc]
brickonriver checks
fearQ has 15 seconds left to act
fearQ bets 1,000
brickonriver has 15 seconds left to act

[Frisby]

I call and get shown a jack most likely.

I think you played it well pre and on the flop & turn.

[Scotty]

I'd timebank and look through the previous hands to see if he had done anything out of the ordinary... Then fold if not. Don't think many people turn hands with showdown value into bluffs on this kind of board often.

[lostluggage]

is 4th pair still good here? thoughts on my line up to river and river decision?

Full Tilt Poker Game #15946258531: $3 + $0.30 KO Sit & Go (116949680), Table 1 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 10:06:50 ET - 2009/11/11
Seat 1: biko06 (10,650), is sitting out
Seat 2: john920 (7,690)
Seat 3: kazimir11 (2,230)
Seat 4: fearQ (2,950)
Seat 5: pbs4u (6,113)
Seat 6: DnPnA (2,750)
Seat 7: jora555 (1,795)
Seat 8: PlaYasChiCa (7,710)
Seat 9: brickonriver (5,835)
PlaYasChiCa posts the small blind of 50
brickonriver posts the big blind of 100
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to brickonriver [4c 4s]
biko06 folds
john920 folds
kazimir11 folds
fearQ raises to 300
pbs4u folds
DnPnA folds
jora555 folds
PlaYasChiCa folds
brickonriver calls 200
*** FLOP *** [9h 2h 9d]
brickonriver checks
fearQ bets 500
brickonriver calls 500
*** TURN *** [9h 2h 9d] [7c]
brickonriver checks
fearQ checks
*** RIVER *** [9h 2h 9d 7c] [Jc]
brickonriver checks
fearQ has 15 seconds left to act
fearQ bets 1,000
brickonriver has 15 seconds left to act

With no history it seems to play out quite easy for me (so probs miles off)..

Standard raise pre, which you call in BB hoping to hit your set...fine...disguised if you hit...a re-raise wouldnt get you any info as any hand is likely to call unless you pushed...

Flop looks good and safe esp once you check and he bets...I doubt he'd play this fast at this point and can rule out any 9....

Now...did you call knowing/thinking your ahead and putting him on some large A hand or mid pair?

Your call gives off strength smooth callin the 500...checking the turn is fine imo and once he checks the turn you must know your ahead possibly thinking of a river bet if the river blanks...

River J is a tricky card as there as lots of combos that now beat you...he could raised pre with a hand like J10s etc..

Why did you check river? What do you put him on?

I think checkin the river is fine if you're gonna check-call any bet however checking seems to signal you are done with the hand..

Once he bets its fairly obv that he doesnt believe you have a 9 anymore and you woulda fired a small value bet on the river so he bets out a 2/3 pot bet...big enough to look like a winning hand...

I think he has either binked the J or has a hand like 33-66...

IMO I think a shove would win it...

But a call is far more reasonable...but with no history this is just a load of babble I'm talking...

Please tell me you stuck it in his eye and then he called flipping 3's...

[BrickontheRiver]

do you think he percieves Ax to have showdown value here? i mean it obv does but i look like i have a 2 here right?

[lostluggage]

do you think he percieves Ax to have showdown value here? i mean it obv does but i look like i have a 2 here right?

I dont think it does...

Cos if you do then your boat aint losing...unless you call raises with a2/a3s etc you tricky swine...

I dont think he has a clue what range you've got

[BrickontheRiver]

my boat?

[lostluggage]

my boat?

meaning pocket 2's...cant see him thinking you call preflop and then the flop with the 2 (whatever kicker)

[BrickontheRiver]

i checked because i can only get called by a hand that beat me i still hadnt decided what i was gunna do if he bet.

[BrickontheRiver]

ok i see. i personally dont ever turn up with a 2 but lots off people at this stakes would.

[lostluggage]

i checked because i can only get called by a hand that beat me i still hadnt decided what i was gunna do if he bet.

River we're talking about here?

So did you check to check-call or check reevaluate?

What range did you have him on?

[Scotty]

do you think he percieves Ax to have showdown value here? i mean it obv does but i look like i have a 2 here right?

Dunno what your image is, but Ax will always have some showdown value with the flush draw on the flop. What hand combos do you think raise preflop from middle position, miss this board and bluff the river? I think there's more chance he is betting for value than bluffing.

[lostluggage]

Dunno what your image is, but Ax will always have some showdown value with the flush draw on the flop. What hand combos do you think raise preflop from middle position, miss this board and bluff the river? I think there's more chance he is betting for value than bluffing.

Looks like a value bet but I doubt it is...I read it as he is now vshort stacked and if he dont take this pot he'll be crippled so he's repping a J but I just dont think he has one...

Brickontheriver's check to him looks v weak and is wanting showdown and t'other dude dont have any with (what I'm presuming) is Ax or 4th pair also (whatever that may be...33 to me)

[Ridla]

Betting the turn gives you alot more information IMO

[BrickontheRiver]

when i check his hand range in my mind is 33-66 ax and lots of broadway combos.... but when he bets i eliminate 33-66 as it has no reason to bet. betting 1k out of a 2k stack is weird too. what do people make of him leaving 1k back? one more thing is that i have surely set him up to bluff his whole no pair range. even if he puts me on 44 he is surely still expecting my to fold to a bet

[lostluggage]

Betting the turn gives you alot more information IMO

Agreed...

Also eliminates the tricky river which is fav to be higher than a 4..

Thats why the turn check makes it look like Brickontheriver has a set but the river check looks defeated..

[lostluggage]

when i check his hand range in my mind is 33-66 ax and lots of broadway combos.... but when he bets i eliminate 33-66 as it has no reason to bet. betting 1k out of a 2k stack is weird too. what do people make of him leaving 1k back?

Chip and a chair

[BrickontheRiver]

betting the turn will give me more info for sure, but getting this decision right will either of saved me money of got value from bluffs, as if i get called on the turn im beat and if he folds then i miss out on bluff value. admittedly i have created a tougher decision but onne the it more profitable if i come to the correct conclusion either way.

[lostluggage]

betting the turn will give me more info for sure, but getting this decision right will either of saved me money of got value from bluffs, as if i get called on the turn im beat and if he folds then i miss out on bluff value. admittedly i have created a tougher decision but onne the it more profitable if i come to the correct conclusion either way.

Phew...dude...I think FPS...no offence but bluff value must mean that you shoved over his value bet

[BrickontheRiver]

no.... i mean value gained from inducing a bluff from him and flatting.

[lostluggage]

no.... i mean value gained from inducing a bluff from him and flatting.

Apologies...read that wrong...

Right, well, so for that reason you must think the 44 are good and his Ax is gonna be turned into a bluff...tricky river but still have to call yes?

[BrickontheRiver]

i dont have to call, the river is by no means a dream one but i feel like he would bluff alot beacuse of my line.

[Ridla]

The way he played the hand i think there are more holdings he's beating you with than you''re beating him with.

By check/calling the flop and betting the turn you give him a chance to pass quite alot of these hands. If you continue your agression on the river, even more so.

By checking it down to the river there are alot of hands he's now confident with (55 upwards and any AJ, KJ, QJ etc). What are you beating? AK, AQ, KQ, 33.. thats about it really.

Not forgetting he could also have a 9 of course.

I think you lose more times than you win checking the turn..

[lostluggage]

i dont have to call, the river is by no means a dream one but i feel like he would bluff alot beacuse of my line.

I fully agree...your line up to river looks strong n then the check on the river is asking for a bet to be put out..

You obv called but I woulda shoved me like...probs wouldnt have got any more out of him but avoids showdown and keeps me myterious:D

[BrickontheRiver]

ridla you do make good sense about betting the turn in order to protect your hand but as you never want to get called u r essentially bluffing with what could easily be the best hand.

shoving the river is criminal!

[lostluggage]

ridla you do make good sense about betting the turn in order to protect your hand but as you never want to get called u r essentially bluffing with what could easily be the best hand.

shoving the river is criminal!

Shoving after he bets I meant...

And I think thats Genius:D

[Ridla]

agreed a call on the turn puts you in a horrible spot.. but i think it gives you a lot more information should he bet the river, as i doubt he calls the turn with absolute air.

[BrickontheRiver]

i knew what you meant lol....... r u actually being serious? i dont get it. what are the advantages? if its just to avoid a showdown then that is NOt a worthy reason to shove as these idiots dont have a clue what to do with the info they would gain from a showdown

[lostluggage]

agreed a call on the turn puts you in a horrible spot.. but i think it gives you a lot more information should he bet the river, as i doubt he calls the turn with absolute air.

+1

Put yaself in a v tricky position where you're hopin you know where you're at...it is FPS and not scared play thats why shove the river and laugh as he folds aj face up

[jamasonk]

i think you can rule out 55-TT as hes not checking the turn then betting the river instead of betting the turn and checking the river. if he checked a bigger pair than that id be a little surprised but i certainly know a lot of people who would, not so much in a $3 though. the river did make a lot of jacks that he'd value bet however its a good card to bluff as it didnt make the flush and he wont think you check a 9 a 3rd time. i do see people bluffing here with ace high cause they think shit i lose if i check, but i think you called and he mucked KQ we'll see...

[BrickontheRiver]

isnt that the point tho ridla, dont i want air to stay in so that he has the opportunity to bluff? i think if i could get a single hand that has me beat on the turn to fold i would bet but i only get air to fold and EVERYTHING that has me beat calls.

[BrickontheRiver]

not sure if i know you jamasonk but you break it down the same way that i did. and dont forget that im getting more than 2.5-1 on a call here.

[Ridla]

that may be the case.. but if they're holding 55 or 66 you'd wish you'd shown a bit more strength on later streets, he could fold to a bet on the turn, but he's never folding to a check. If you're happy for him to see a free river with any two high cards then go for it.. the fact you've posted this up tells you you were put in a difficult spot on the river, which could be avoided is all im saying.

[jamasonk]

i dont post much. the gay thing is you look so weak that he almost has to bet whether it be for value or a bluff you still look weak as piss lol. i think raising the flop is your best play as he shoves all strong holdings, folds if he missed (is he good enough to put you to a decision, i doubt it) - (might he float, he might). raising the flop however kinda takes away his one extra bet, as you know hes betting at least once more if the flush doesnt get there whether it be bluff or value if youre checking turn and river

[BrickontheRiver]

both jasamonk and ridla put forward options which are sensible and most liely profitable, but i think taking a line which allows you to get max value from your hand would be optimal over simple lines which lose you value (providing you are ok with being put in tough spots. that sound about right?

[jamasonk]

aye i probably dont raise this flop come to think about it. i agree. better tell us what u did before quarter to 6 ive got work lol

[Ridla]

If you're confident you can make the right decision on the river, i see nothing wrong.. i just think by check/calling the river you're leaning towards hoping you're good, rather than knowing.

[BrickontheRiver]

admittedly the jack is a terrible river but more than half the time i will get a card 2-10 which make this an easy check snap call.


to be honest i dont know why but when he put 1000 out there i was pretty confident that he though i was super weak and had to bluf but didnt want to commit his whole tourny to it so left himself 1k, i snap. and he mucks a8o.

[Ridla]

Hero :cool: :D

[BrickontheRiver]

i scoop the tourny too:D

[Scotty]

If you have no intentions of giving up, then I think bet/folding the turn is probably best. It's as safe a card as you can get and you can easily rep a 9 or some sort of strong holdings. There's no card on the river that you like.

[Scotty]

i scoop the tourny too:D

Win!

[Ridla]

I forgot you run like jesus online.. snap call every time :rolleyes:

[BrickontheRiver]

i like anything lower than a 10 dont i?

[Full Tilit]

YO BOTR, PF is fine IMO & I kind of agree w/Ridla but instead I’d CR OTF as pealing a turn allows villain to catch up…albeit a 7c falls which isn’t dangerous so leading is fine. TBH playing the hand to induce a bluff is your problem here IMO & not defining villains hand on earlier streets has ultimately got you in this situation. Playing AA/KK this way here would be fine but 44 is far too vulnerable & playing the hand so slow means you have zero information on villains holdings, IMO villain would value bet 7x, 9x, Jx, & 77+ vs. bluffing range AK, AQ, A10, KQ vs. showdown range 33-66, A2s. It’s a marginal call but folding is fine however IDK if this line w/44 OOP is an optimal strategy. :D

[Scotty]

i like anything lower than a 10 dont i?

Not if hands like A8 take up much of his range :o

[BrickontheRiver]

but a 7 and 77+ wouldnt check the turn would they?

[GiMac]

YO BOTR, PF is fine IMO & I kind of agree w/Ridla but instead I’d CR OTF as pealing a turn allows villain to catch up…albeit a 7c falls which isn’t dangerous so leading is fine. TBH playing the hand to induce a bluff is your problem here IMO & not defining villains hand on earlier streets has ultimately got you in this situation. Playing AA/KK this way here would be fine but 44 is far too vulnerable & playing the hand so slow means you have zero information on villains holdings, IMO villain would value bet 7x, 9x, Jx, & 77+ vs. bluffing range AK, AQ, A10, KQ vs. showdown range 33-66, A2s. It’s a marginal call but folding is fine however IDK if this line w/44 OOP is an optimal strategy. :D

I agree, although I'd probably take it one step down the road. My C/R would probably be on the turn, so long as a blank type card falls as it did. On the flop he might have 2 overs and flush draw, and you know they are never passing on flop with that on FTP, but turn then they have a decision. Also makes it look like you could have 9, as that is the standard play there. You definitely need to define his hand range, and whilst I don't have a problem with the set mine call preflop, although a reraise probably sees him fold, you have to define the strength of his hand either on flop or turn, having received what is a pretty favourable flop, or be faced with a hero call on the river, as you had.

So in summary I am between Ridla and FullTilit, with a C/R on the turn. :D

[Full Tilit]

but a 7 and 77+ wouldnt check the turn would they?

7x & 77+ have to proceed cautiously IMO w/30BB & paired board...IDK if 7x/77+ could withstand I CR OTT so IMO checking behind to either call a river bet/value betting river if checked to is a feasible option which gets hand to showdown cheaply if you have 9x. :D

[BrickontheRiver]

i cant c/r the turn..... he didnt bet.

but if he did bet the turn wouldnt you assume he has something and pass?